A huge point missing from the conversation (at large — this episode was so comprehensive!):
If we want porn to be less objectifying we need women making porn. She has more control than most industry porn stars. I’m sure her fans have parasocial relationships with her. She is a person to them. Certainly more so than an unnamed woman on pornhub.
I’ve participated in the kink and poly communities for some time. I’m a public health PhD student. I’ve contributed to academic textbooks about kink. People (women) do stuff like this for fun. People share explicit content for free (fetlife). Our concern for the health of promiscuous women is as disingenuous as our concern for the health of fat people (fat phobia). Health concerns are leveraged as a means of controlling behavior and justification for judgment. People aren’t genuinely concerned about women’s health. (As mentioned) If you devote time to examining the risk of STIs you will quickly learn that it’s just not as scary as people imply. Even HIV (preventative PREP is available). The bigger risk is social stigma. Speculating that men would fake STI tests assumes very negative things about fans’ feelings towards Lily and towards other members of the community. These men are extending trust to each other as well.
With regard to her emotional reaction: If a server at a restaurant serves 100 tables in a night with no food or breaks, they will be emotionally exhausted. Influencers have shared that they are overwhelmed by meet and greet events. She may have benefited from more logistical and emotional support. Introductions, telling people where to put their clothes, explaining what will happen, telling people that time is up, all takes emotional energy. The sex alone is probably more than enough work. I am glad that you brought up her boundaries with the documentarian. Based on the quote you shared, and other sources, it seems she was pressured to sit down with him as soon as possible and she felt like she was being grilled. Honestly, if i had worked a 12 hour day, didn’t eat much, didn’t get breaks, and had to talk to 100 people I would cry in an interview.
I truly believe Lily and I think OF is changing how we think about women while watching porn in a largely positive way.
"These men are extending trust to each other as well." I love this point. It makes me think about how an entirely different society than ours might look at this stunt as an act of profound community organizing, an exercise in trust and consent all the way around. Love this, thank you!
Love that. Most people practicing kink agree that safe kink occurs in the context of community (even when sex acts are private). Community members provide support and protection against consent violation and abuse. Others in the community are prepared to discuss relationships and sexual activity with care. (Lily deserves this!) Kink communities police their members, call people in, call people out, remove unsafe people from the community, and warn others about unsafe people. Nothing is perfect but kink communities strive for a climate of trust and mutual respect for everyone. It is a form of radical care. It would be incredible to see a similar mindset extended to this kind of “stunt”. It’s great to hear a conversation where people are genuinely examining their beliefs. This was such a good episode.
Thank you for your insight. I loved this episode. I have much to say about what you've shared, but with my one minute before my kids need me I'll add that the only person who really seemed to think about the "act" as a sense of community and that she would need some TLC was the older woman outside the store. Zero judgment, zero questions. Just understood this was someone's choice, but that she would need food and rest.
Honestly when he starts talking to her I wasn’t sure which way it would go and as soon as I heard her response two things went through my head 1) that the British are so polite and afraid to talk about things that it comes off endearing (my in laws are British and for that generation this isn’t untrue in certain circumstances). And 2) that I want to be like her. I want to reserve judgement and just hear about a person in the moment. It was as if he said she was going to run 100 miles. And yes I guess a third question was who is this woman and what’s her story?? The 70s were wild indeed :)
My husband pointed out that she might have seen the camera crew, assumed they were making a “man on the street” video, and decided she wouldn’t take the bait. Regardless of her reasoning I maintain she is a true queen.
What a great point. I totally forgot about her. Ultimate girl’s girl. I wonder how old she was. I hear the 70s were a wild time. ;) (jokes about wild hippies aside) Maybe she went straight to practical thinking and task-oriented support because she has a mental framework in place already. If she’s already processed her feelings about a similar behavior “make sure she’s got some water” would be a very reasonable response.
Another thought: In response to Hanna Neelman’s (ballerina farm) interview many liberal said “let her do what she wants” is the feminist position. Many liberal women believe Lily’s behavior cannot possibly reflect what she actually wants, claiming the feminist perspective is “Lily has internalized patriarchal ideals so deeply that she is willing to embrace her own exploitation”. I’ve even seen women interpret Lily’s behavior as self harm. Contrasting your episode about Lily with your episode about Hannah: Hannah said she didn’t want to give up her dance education but her husband encouraged her to get married; Lily said she left school because she was making good money doing something she enjoys. Hannah says she’s living a life she is called to live by god (who says that if she leaves the church she won’t see her children for eternity). Lily says she decided sex wasn’t that big of a deal to her so she does what she wants despite existing in a culture that that believes her promiscuity is wrong and gross. Hannah experiences a benevolent patriarchy. Lily is openly ridiculed by conservatives upholding patriarchal values like purity culture. Hannah grew up in a community that has enforced her behavior as the “right choice”and her immediate family holds her to that standard. Lily’s family seems to support her decisions to engage in behaviors that subvert the cultural values she was exposed to as a child. Are these women able to give and withdraw consent? Both claim they are doing what they want. How much confidence do we have in their claims? To what extent does their behavior align with their public statements? What can we tell from the inconsistencies? Do both women have the support, autonomy, and independence to leave their current lifestyle? Do they have the knowledge and resources to make a lifestyle change?
Sorry for all the editing: I am super dyslexic. ;)
Listening right now and 1) I appreciate Katie’s honesty about her feelings on sex work cuz HARD SAME and 2) when Lily was crying at the end of the day, all I could thing about was the number of times I had a loooonnnggggg day in customer service or teaching and came home and cried because I was just overwhelmed and tired.
Same with the crying at the end of the day! I work in healthcare…when I got to this part of the episode and everyone was focusing on her “disassociating” I just though oh wow, they’ve never worked a twelve hour shift
RIGHT??? Honestly this was the most relatable moment to me, a time when I was just like.... OOOOOHHHHHHHH IT'S A JOB 😂
And like... I don't know... maybe NO ONE should have to work a 12 hour shift or a day so exhausting all you can do is cry at the end of it, NO MATTER WHAT THE JOB IS?????
Or worked a 24-30 hour shift where someone died or there was a bad outcome and you just HAD to keep going without processing anything you felt until the end and then you just succumbed to the exhaustion and emotions
totally. I agree that the film crew was just there too soon. I didn't see her crying as any regret of the day, but like she said regret for people's experiences. and honestly, just overload. she was exhausted, her hormones were most certainly flowing and she had not yet processed the day, which was a big, long, day.
Im at minute 40 and im finding a ton of parallels between lily’s video and the videos of this female competitive eater I follow (lol long story). Both are doing something that many people have difficult emotional relationships with, food and sex. Both are white, thin, and conventionally attractive. Both invite fans to participate and get upset when they don’t meet the set upon goals they have set for themselves. Both seem able to operate at an almost robotic level when doing their tasks and then can return to what appears to be normal. People see eaters like the one I follow as athletes and even though what lily is doing is honestly at an athlete level but I can’t imagine anyone seeing her as an athlete due to the stigma of sex work itself. Who knows, maybe that may change? Great episode so far as always!!!
There’s a level of stamina and performance and just physical capability that people doing either of these lines of work have. I’ve watched live streams and thought my god, they do this for hours? How are they not completely wiped out?
I couldn’t agree more. I have seen women on OF do things that I did not believe were physically possible. (Girl, how!?) I can’t help but be impressed with the athleticism of it all but I would not have known to call it athleticism without this comment.
This was a really important episode for me, as I've recently become privy to a man that I shared an online D&D group with having seen escorts. At the time, I confronted him about this with the same energy as if he were a predator. After listening to this episode, I realized that I had been pushing the same SW-exclusionary talking points that made independent consenting adults out as villains in the eyes of society.
I've just apologized profusely to him, though I now know to better introspect regarding the socialized assumptions about sex I held, even as a (male) feminist. I think that I clearly have not done enough work to deconstruct this perspective of sexuality and sexual interactions between persons under Patriarchy, Capitalism, and the basic desire to be intimate with one another.
This was a rather long-winded way for me to say, "thank you!" I may well meet other men who confide in me that they have made purchases of such services in the future; here's hoping that I can be far more supportive next time!
I'm honestly still embarrassed about leaving the comment, but there may well be lurkers who have either seen SWs or are considering doing so that have yet to hear a voice that won't treat them like monsters for their interests. It can be difficult to navigate feminist discourse under increasingly intense TERF/SWERF rhetoric that blankets all males as inherently violent sexual deviants and women who enjoy to have sexual activity outside of monogamy as enabling them.
The fact that our society has made SW's and women's (and everyone's) lives as a whole much more dangerous due to excusing male-perpetrated violence as an inevitable consequence of the Y-chromosome instead of being greatly perpetuated by criminalization of SW, dehumanization women, and stigmatization of sex for the joy of sex. Treating all forms of SW as a vice-market only works to demonize a part of the seller's agency and the buyer's sexuality.
So much of this discussion would be looked upon differently if most people had better sexual literacy, consent education, and far less focus on sex as power (usually for men) and pollution (usually for women).
Re: the crying after. While I agree she was probably exhausted, but sometimes sex can be overwhelming. TMI - but I cried after sex on my wedding night. Totally uncontrolled, and I enjoyed it, but it held a lot of weight. She was under so much pressure to perform, and the buildup to the event along with the high stakes might’ve just taken her out.
Anyway, to me it feels more like post-event overwhelm + sex sometimes being a lot.
I feel like maybe it's hard sometimes for women to admit that sex is a lot? There's so much baggage around women wanting sex or not wanting sex; so much pressure to show we like it and want it JUST ENOUGH.
Yes! And I’m really happy for women like Lily and the woman from the podcast featured in the episode that they can really love the experience of sex. It’s amazing that they’ve been able to drop the baggage (though Lily’s deeply held people pleasing was sad to hear).
From the beginning I was not interested in this topic at all and found it distasteful quite honestly. I'm like Katie ... grew up Mormon and I'm still dissecting all of that baggage. This episode was a major eye opener to me. I had never once considered that a woman might like or choose to be in the sex trade. Thank you Caro & Katie for making this podcast and quite honestly helping me to deconstruct my own preconceived notions from religion. Sex is not distasteful. It is primal and a core part of being human. Why are we made to feel shame about these things! Thank you
🥲 we're all on the journey. thanks for this message, tho, it means the world. if you're curious you should totally listen to sex with stranger or betwixt the sheets, two amazing and entertaining pods that really changed my comfort level and understanding of sexuality across the spectrum
I usually enjoy what you two have to say but it’s really frustrating to hear you frame Phillips as a girl boss feminist flexing her agency that somehow magically exists outside of the patriarchy?! Really frustrating and it doesn’t come across that you’re engaging in good faith with the idea that porn and the porn industry serves the patriarchy. Reducing an anti-porn stance to being prudish really sucks and misses a lot of actual feminist theory that is really valuable here.
You repeatedly emphasize that she has agency, reminding us she is a savvy businesswoman, that she’s profiting off of these videos. “The most interesting thing about Lily Phillips is that she’s in control.”
You hone in on the having sex with multiple men at once is disgusting critique and say the real issue people have with Phillips (and porn in general? Unclear) is that she/it is an expression of female desire and that’s what is actually disturbing people. You use historical and survey data to say that “women are just dirty little freaks who want to fuck around and find out.”
To the point about her existing outside of the patriarchy, there’s little interrogation of who/what the porn industry serves in a systemic sense. It’s odd to me to look at an industry that continues to profit on trafficking, coercion and categories that are explicitly about women’s pain and abuse and almost spin it as a tale of sex positivity.
so I’m guessing you would argue that lily phillips is not in control? And that porn should be eliminated, or banned, or regulated, or what? Genuinely curious. It’s obvious you’re not happy with my critique, which, fine, but it’s less obvious to me what analytical framework or solution you would prefer, because on my end, “women cannot choose to become sex workers” and “porn is bad, period” feel kind of like dead end roads, but maybe I’m misunderstanding your argument
I think she is in control to the extent that we are all in control in a patriarchal capitalist society. My point is that her actions don’t exist in a vacuum. I would prefer an analytical framework that approaches patriarchy through a systemic lens. Of course women can choose to be sex workers, women can choose to do a lot of things, but why?
It’s hard to say re: solutions. Banning porn seems like it would have an ultimately negative effect on women, and perhaps even increase trafficking/porn that comes out of it. Paying for porn through an OnlyFans type model seems like a step in a better direction, but again, that’s doesn’t avoid the patriarchal nature of the porn industry, just is maybe less immediately harmful. Hard to say, maybe it’s too recent of a phenomenon to truly know.
I believe a world without patriarchy is possible, and that necessitates a world without porn as we know it. It’s the same way I think about a post-capitalist society, but there’s clearer frameworks of what the latter would look like.
This is a comprehensive, challenging episode that I really appreciated. I had to pause to do other things after the soundbite of lily crying and found myself feeling really distressed, which I did not expect, considering I am largely in agreement with Caro’s points here about the potential for agency and consent in sex work. In trying to think it through, I realized that even though it’s clearly NOT what lily felt in the moment, I couldn’t help but project my own experiences of unsatisfactory, sometimes even nonconsensual sex, and my emotional responses to it, onto her when trying to imagine what she had just experienced. I think a missing link here in terms of how many women interpret and absorb sex work is how many straight women are unfortunately extremely familiar with having awful, transactional-feeling, sometimes violent or painful sex when they were looking for or expecting consensual, pleasurable, or even romantic experiences, because of how fucked up particularly hetero communication about expectations around sex is in the every day world. It stands to reason then that many women project those experiences onto a physical interaction that perhaps (or at least they imagine) physically resembles what they went through, even if all the intentions and context behind it is different. Which is just a long, muddled way of saying that, unsurprisingly, rape culture and men just being plain old ignorant of or disinterested in female pleasure and wellness OUTSIDE of sex work (and our inability to articulate or communicate any of those experiences well) has unsurprisingly handicapped our imaginations, as well as opportunities for lots of people to enjoy sex in different ways, including sex work!
I watched a webinar from the Kinsey Institute last fall on sex work (I don’t see it in their available lectures now - but they have a ton of freely available education https://kinseyinstitute.org/education-outreach/index.php). Anyway, the researcher spoke a lot about her methods and one thing she did was have a panel of sex workers give her feedback on her survey - the one main thing they suggested adding to it was to add something to the effect of “because I like it” to the why they do sex work portion. She also went and spent time in the communities and with the people who did the surveys - such a cool and eye opening lecture.
Anyway - Kinsey is still doing research and education in the middle of Indiana. Super fun rabbit hole. Highly recommend.
This was so interesting. Thank you both for tackling such a difficult topic. I've always felt that women like sex as much as men do, and enjoy the exact same things that men like, but often don't get as much or the type of sex they want because they don't have a partner(s) they trust and feel safe with.
Wow this one was a doozy. I had an assumption going into this episode that what women truly find arousing is difficult to answer because so much of how sex is presented in western culture feels like it is by and for the male gaze. Caro took a wrecking ball to that and while I think there’s more nuance to that assumption than you can take on in 2 hours it definitely gave me something to think about. Finally, why aren’t we consulting the people actually doing this work more often when crafting laws about it, what a novel idea! Lol. Made me wonder if the perception of unreliable narrator undercuts extending trust to these people to shape how their profession should be regulated?!?
Listen with him! I have so much respect for my husband bc I do think he is sexually more mature and advanced in his thoughts, feelings, and execution of things. The times I've found myself resisting him, or even judging I know it was coming from what Katie said right off the bat. The Catholic School, prude culture, and misogynist world we've grown up in. I listened without him, watched the Lily doc with him, and will send him this episode.
Ok that’s really neat how you both listen, and how you’re recognizing the misogyny in your upbringing (I’m in the Katie club too— former youth group girlie here who left the church while I was in college). My husband doesn’t like podcasts though! Maybe I could print out the transcript for him to read 😂 He will read all kinds of articles but listening to podcasts annoys him for some reason. Which is a bummer because I LOVE them and listen to so many!
As someone who has been a tangential sex worker (phone sex) and a consensual gang bang girl once or twice in my earlier life this was SO REFRESHING. I had my hackles up about that documentarian sticking the mic in lily’s face when I watched the piece, I actually stopped watching. I met more girls like Lily in sex work than I did girls who hated it and it always annoyed me how the media and political establishment frames sex work. brava girls, 10/10 no notes.
I recently saw an IG for a female physician is LatAm who has an only fans and people were trying to ny to discredit her credentials and expertise because she does only fans! Still working on the episode but so far 🫶🏻
a Sherriff nearby my city was recently fired bc they found out she was "doing porn" (I'm not sure if it was OF or somewhere else). She cited financial needs, and all the dudes kicked her out of her job. I couldn't help but know there is hypocrisy here, as well as, WHO THE FUCK CARES what she does in her spare time. And if you are mad about her second job, maybe let's change things so she would never need the second job.
Oh my god - this episode. I grew up like Katie where purity was preached and believed I had progressed to become this cool liberal sex positive adolescent provider dolling out condoms and OCPs, but there was still so much I got to deconstruct in this episode. Bravo. Very well done. Ps we want the Blake ep
A huge point missing from the conversation (at large — this episode was so comprehensive!):
If we want porn to be less objectifying we need women making porn. She has more control than most industry porn stars. I’m sure her fans have parasocial relationships with her. She is a person to them. Certainly more so than an unnamed woman on pornhub.
I’ve participated in the kink and poly communities for some time. I’m a public health PhD student. I’ve contributed to academic textbooks about kink. People (women) do stuff like this for fun. People share explicit content for free (fetlife). Our concern for the health of promiscuous women is as disingenuous as our concern for the health of fat people (fat phobia). Health concerns are leveraged as a means of controlling behavior and justification for judgment. People aren’t genuinely concerned about women’s health. (As mentioned) If you devote time to examining the risk of STIs you will quickly learn that it’s just not as scary as people imply. Even HIV (preventative PREP is available). The bigger risk is social stigma. Speculating that men would fake STI tests assumes very negative things about fans’ feelings towards Lily and towards other members of the community. These men are extending trust to each other as well.
With regard to her emotional reaction: If a server at a restaurant serves 100 tables in a night with no food or breaks, they will be emotionally exhausted. Influencers have shared that they are overwhelmed by meet and greet events. She may have benefited from more logistical and emotional support. Introductions, telling people where to put their clothes, explaining what will happen, telling people that time is up, all takes emotional energy. The sex alone is probably more than enough work. I am glad that you brought up her boundaries with the documentarian. Based on the quote you shared, and other sources, it seems she was pressured to sit down with him as soon as possible and she felt like she was being grilled. Honestly, if i had worked a 12 hour day, didn’t eat much, didn’t get breaks, and had to talk to 100 people I would cry in an interview.
I truly believe Lily and I think OF is changing how we think about women while watching porn in a largely positive way.
"These men are extending trust to each other as well." I love this point. It makes me think about how an entirely different society than ours might look at this stunt as an act of profound community organizing, an exercise in trust and consent all the way around. Love this, thank you!
Love that. Most people practicing kink agree that safe kink occurs in the context of community (even when sex acts are private). Community members provide support and protection against consent violation and abuse. Others in the community are prepared to discuss relationships and sexual activity with care. (Lily deserves this!) Kink communities police their members, call people in, call people out, remove unsafe people from the community, and warn others about unsafe people. Nothing is perfect but kink communities strive for a climate of trust and mutual respect for everyone. It is a form of radical care. It would be incredible to see a similar mindset extended to this kind of “stunt”. It’s great to hear a conversation where people are genuinely examining their beliefs. This was such a good episode.
Thank you for your insight. I loved this episode. I have much to say about what you've shared, but with my one minute before my kids need me I'll add that the only person who really seemed to think about the "act" as a sense of community and that she would need some TLC was the older woman outside the store. Zero judgment, zero questions. Just understood this was someone's choice, but that she would need food and rest.
Hope to hear more of your thoughts as you are available to share. :)
Honestly when he starts talking to her I wasn’t sure which way it would go and as soon as I heard her response two things went through my head 1) that the British are so polite and afraid to talk about things that it comes off endearing (my in laws are British and for that generation this isn’t untrue in certain circumstances). And 2) that I want to be like her. I want to reserve judgement and just hear about a person in the moment. It was as if he said she was going to run 100 miles. And yes I guess a third question was who is this woman and what’s her story?? The 70s were wild indeed :)
My husband pointed out that she might have seen the camera crew, assumed they were making a “man on the street” video, and decided she wouldn’t take the bait. Regardless of her reasoning I maintain she is a true queen.
What a great point. I totally forgot about her. Ultimate girl’s girl. I wonder how old she was. I hear the 70s were a wild time. ;) (jokes about wild hippies aside) Maybe she went straight to practical thinking and task-oriented support because she has a mental framework in place already. If she’s already processed her feelings about a similar behavior “make sure she’s got some water” would be a very reasonable response.
Another thought: In response to Hanna Neelman’s (ballerina farm) interview many liberal said “let her do what she wants” is the feminist position. Many liberal women believe Lily’s behavior cannot possibly reflect what she actually wants, claiming the feminist perspective is “Lily has internalized patriarchal ideals so deeply that she is willing to embrace her own exploitation”. I’ve even seen women interpret Lily’s behavior as self harm. Contrasting your episode about Lily with your episode about Hannah: Hannah said she didn’t want to give up her dance education but her husband encouraged her to get married; Lily said she left school because she was making good money doing something she enjoys. Hannah says she’s living a life she is called to live by god (who says that if she leaves the church she won’t see her children for eternity). Lily says she decided sex wasn’t that big of a deal to her so she does what she wants despite existing in a culture that that believes her promiscuity is wrong and gross. Hannah experiences a benevolent patriarchy. Lily is openly ridiculed by conservatives upholding patriarchal values like purity culture. Hannah grew up in a community that has enforced her behavior as the “right choice”and her immediate family holds her to that standard. Lily’s family seems to support her decisions to engage in behaviors that subvert the cultural values she was exposed to as a child. Are these women able to give and withdraw consent? Both claim they are doing what they want. How much confidence do we have in their claims? To what extent does their behavior align with their public statements? What can we tell from the inconsistencies? Do both women have the support, autonomy, and independence to leave their current lifestyle? Do they have the knowledge and resources to make a lifestyle change?
Sorry for all the editing: I am super dyslexic. ;)
Listening right now and 1) I appreciate Katie’s honesty about her feelings on sex work cuz HARD SAME and 2) when Lily was crying at the end of the day, all I could thing about was the number of times I had a loooonnnggggg day in customer service or teaching and came home and cried because I was just overwhelmed and tired.
Same with the crying at the end of the day! I work in healthcare…when I got to this part of the episode and everyone was focusing on her “disassociating” I just though oh wow, they’ve never worked a twelve hour shift
RIGHT??? Honestly this was the most relatable moment to me, a time when I was just like.... OOOOOHHHHHHHH IT'S A JOB 😂
And like... I don't know... maybe NO ONE should have to work a 12 hour shift or a day so exhausting all you can do is cry at the end of it, NO MATTER WHAT THE JOB IS?????
!
Or worked a 24-30 hour shift where someone died or there was a bad outcome and you just HAD to keep going without processing anything you felt until the end and then you just succumbed to the exhaustion and emotions
totally. I agree that the film crew was just there too soon. I didn't see her crying as any regret of the day, but like she said regret for people's experiences. and honestly, just overload. she was exhausted, her hormones were most certainly flowing and she had not yet processed the day, which was a big, long, day.
Im at minute 40 and im finding a ton of parallels between lily’s video and the videos of this female competitive eater I follow (lol long story). Both are doing something that many people have difficult emotional relationships with, food and sex. Both are white, thin, and conventionally attractive. Both invite fans to participate and get upset when they don’t meet the set upon goals they have set for themselves. Both seem able to operate at an almost robotic level when doing their tasks and then can return to what appears to be normal. People see eaters like the one I follow as athletes and even though what lily is doing is honestly at an athlete level but I can’t imagine anyone seeing her as an athlete due to the stigma of sex work itself. Who knows, maybe that may change? Great episode so far as always!!!
This is such an interesting connection. I love the idea of OF models / porn stars as athletes.
There’s a level of stamina and performance and just physical capability that people doing either of these lines of work have. I’ve watched live streams and thought my god, they do this for hours? How are they not completely wiped out?
I couldn’t agree more. I have seen women on OF do things that I did not believe were physically possible. (Girl, how!?) I can’t help but be impressed with the athleticism of it all but I would not have known to call it athleticism without this comment.
This was a really important episode for me, as I've recently become privy to a man that I shared an online D&D group with having seen escorts. At the time, I confronted him about this with the same energy as if he were a predator. After listening to this episode, I realized that I had been pushing the same SW-exclusionary talking points that made independent consenting adults out as villains in the eyes of society.
I've just apologized profusely to him, though I now know to better introspect regarding the socialized assumptions about sex I held, even as a (male) feminist. I think that I clearly have not done enough work to deconstruct this perspective of sexuality and sexual interactions between persons under Patriarchy, Capitalism, and the basic desire to be intimate with one another.
This was a rather long-winded way for me to say, "thank you!" I may well meet other men who confide in me that they have made purchases of such services in the future; here's hoping that I can be far more supportive next time!
what an awesome and vulnerable comment to leave <3
I'm honestly still embarrassed about leaving the comment, but there may well be lurkers who have either seen SWs or are considering doing so that have yet to hear a voice that won't treat them like monsters for their interests. It can be difficult to navigate feminist discourse under increasingly intense TERF/SWERF rhetoric that blankets all males as inherently violent sexual deviants and women who enjoy to have sexual activity outside of monogamy as enabling them.
The fact that our society has made SW's and women's (and everyone's) lives as a whole much more dangerous due to excusing male-perpetrated violence as an inevitable consequence of the Y-chromosome instead of being greatly perpetuated by criminalization of SW, dehumanization women, and stigmatization of sex for the joy of sex. Treating all forms of SW as a vice-market only works to demonize a part of the seller's agency and the buyer's sexuality.
So much of this discussion would be looked upon differently if most people had better sexual literacy, consent education, and far less focus on sex as power (usually for men) and pollution (usually for women).
Re: the crying after. While I agree she was probably exhausted, but sometimes sex can be overwhelming. TMI - but I cried after sex on my wedding night. Totally uncontrolled, and I enjoyed it, but it held a lot of weight. She was under so much pressure to perform, and the buildup to the event along with the high stakes might’ve just taken her out.
Anyway, to me it feels more like post-event overwhelm + sex sometimes being a lot.
I feel like maybe it's hard sometimes for women to admit that sex is a lot? There's so much baggage around women wanting sex or not wanting sex; so much pressure to show we like it and want it JUST ENOUGH.
Yes! And I’m really happy for women like Lily and the woman from the podcast featured in the episode that they can really love the experience of sex. It’s amazing that they’ve been able to drop the baggage (though Lily’s deeply held people pleasing was sad to hear).
From the beginning I was not interested in this topic at all and found it distasteful quite honestly. I'm like Katie ... grew up Mormon and I'm still dissecting all of that baggage. This episode was a major eye opener to me. I had never once considered that a woman might like or choose to be in the sex trade. Thank you Caro & Katie for making this podcast and quite honestly helping me to deconstruct my own preconceived notions from religion. Sex is not distasteful. It is primal and a core part of being human. Why are we made to feel shame about these things! Thank you
🥲 we're all on the journey. thanks for this message, tho, it means the world. if you're curious you should totally listen to sex with stranger or betwixt the sheets, two amazing and entertaining pods that really changed my comfort level and understanding of sexuality across the spectrum
Thanks Caro. You know I'd never ignore a recommendation from you. On it.
I usually enjoy what you two have to say but it’s really frustrating to hear you frame Phillips as a girl boss feminist flexing her agency that somehow magically exists outside of the patriarchy?! Really frustrating and it doesn’t come across that you’re engaging in good faith with the idea that porn and the porn industry serves the patriarchy. Reducing an anti-porn stance to being prudish really sucks and misses a lot of actual feminist theory that is really valuable here.
At what point did I say Lily Phillips is a girl boss feminist? Or that she exists outside of the patriarchy? Or that being anti porn is prudish?
You repeatedly emphasize that she has agency, reminding us she is a savvy businesswoman, that she’s profiting off of these videos. “The most interesting thing about Lily Phillips is that she’s in control.”
You hone in on the having sex with multiple men at once is disgusting critique and say the real issue people have with Phillips (and porn in general? Unclear) is that she/it is an expression of female desire and that’s what is actually disturbing people. You use historical and survey data to say that “women are just dirty little freaks who want to fuck around and find out.”
To the point about her existing outside of the patriarchy, there’s little interrogation of who/what the porn industry serves in a systemic sense. It’s odd to me to look at an industry that continues to profit on trafficking, coercion and categories that are explicitly about women’s pain and abuse and almost spin it as a tale of sex positivity.
so I’m guessing you would argue that lily phillips is not in control? And that porn should be eliminated, or banned, or regulated, or what? Genuinely curious. It’s obvious you’re not happy with my critique, which, fine, but it’s less obvious to me what analytical framework or solution you would prefer, because on my end, “women cannot choose to become sex workers” and “porn is bad, period” feel kind of like dead end roads, but maybe I’m misunderstanding your argument
I think she is in control to the extent that we are all in control in a patriarchal capitalist society. My point is that her actions don’t exist in a vacuum. I would prefer an analytical framework that approaches patriarchy through a systemic lens. Of course women can choose to be sex workers, women can choose to do a lot of things, but why?
It’s hard to say re: solutions. Banning porn seems like it would have an ultimately negative effect on women, and perhaps even increase trafficking/porn that comes out of it. Paying for porn through an OnlyFans type model seems like a step in a better direction, but again, that’s doesn’t avoid the patriarchal nature of the porn industry, just is maybe less immediately harmful. Hard to say, maybe it’s too recent of a phenomenon to truly know.
I believe a world without patriarchy is possible, and that necessitates a world without porn as we know it. It’s the same way I think about a post-capitalist society, but there’s clearer frameworks of what the latter would look like.
Cool thanks!
lol I can’t tell if you’re being snarky but… you’re welcome!
Would you care to elaborate?
This is a comprehensive, challenging episode that I really appreciated. I had to pause to do other things after the soundbite of lily crying and found myself feeling really distressed, which I did not expect, considering I am largely in agreement with Caro’s points here about the potential for agency and consent in sex work. In trying to think it through, I realized that even though it’s clearly NOT what lily felt in the moment, I couldn’t help but project my own experiences of unsatisfactory, sometimes even nonconsensual sex, and my emotional responses to it, onto her when trying to imagine what she had just experienced. I think a missing link here in terms of how many women interpret and absorb sex work is how many straight women are unfortunately extremely familiar with having awful, transactional-feeling, sometimes violent or painful sex when they were looking for or expecting consensual, pleasurable, or even romantic experiences, because of how fucked up particularly hetero communication about expectations around sex is in the every day world. It stands to reason then that many women project those experiences onto a physical interaction that perhaps (or at least they imagine) physically resembles what they went through, even if all the intentions and context behind it is different. Which is just a long, muddled way of saying that, unsurprisingly, rape culture and men just being plain old ignorant of or disinterested in female pleasure and wellness OUTSIDE of sex work (and our inability to articulate or communicate any of those experiences well) has unsurprisingly handicapped our imaginations, as well as opportunities for lots of people to enjoy sex in different ways, including sex work!
Not me bumping my phone screen while in line at the coffee shop and it just blaring the word “GANGBANG!”
That poor sweet barista’s face 🙈
I watched a webinar from the Kinsey Institute last fall on sex work (I don’t see it in their available lectures now - but they have a ton of freely available education https://kinseyinstitute.org/education-outreach/index.php). Anyway, the researcher spoke a lot about her methods and one thing she did was have a panel of sex workers give her feedback on her survey - the one main thing they suggested adding to it was to add something to the effect of “because I like it” to the why they do sex work portion. She also went and spent time in the communities and with the people who did the surveys - such a cool and eye opening lecture.
Anyway - Kinsey is still doing research and education in the middle of Indiana. Super fun rabbit hole. Highly recommend.
This was so interesting. Thank you both for tackling such a difficult topic. I've always felt that women like sex as much as men do, and enjoy the exact same things that men like, but often don't get as much or the type of sex they want because they don't have a partner(s) they trust and feel safe with.
Wow this one was a doozy. I had an assumption going into this episode that what women truly find arousing is difficult to answer because so much of how sex is presented in western culture feels like it is by and for the male gaze. Caro took a wrecking ball to that and while I think there’s more nuance to that assumption than you can take on in 2 hours it definitely gave me something to think about. Finally, why aren’t we consulting the people actually doing this work more often when crafting laws about it, what a novel idea! Lol. Made me wonder if the perception of unreliable narrator undercuts extending trust to these people to shape how their profession should be regulated?!?
Ok I need my husband to leave the house IMMEDIATELY so I can listen to this in peace.
This made me snort
Listen with him! I have so much respect for my husband bc I do think he is sexually more mature and advanced in his thoughts, feelings, and execution of things. The times I've found myself resisting him, or even judging I know it was coming from what Katie said right off the bat. The Catholic School, prude culture, and misogynist world we've grown up in. I listened without him, watched the Lily doc with him, and will send him this episode.
Ok that’s really neat how you both listen, and how you’re recognizing the misogyny in your upbringing (I’m in the Katie club too— former youth group girlie here who left the church while I was in college). My husband doesn’t like podcasts though! Maybe I could print out the transcript for him to read 😂 He will read all kinds of articles but listening to podcasts annoys him for some reason. Which is a bummer because I LOVE them and listen to so many!
As someone who has been a tangential sex worker (phone sex) and a consensual gang bang girl once or twice in my earlier life this was SO REFRESHING. I had my hackles up about that documentarian sticking the mic in lily’s face when I watched the piece, I actually stopped watching. I met more girls like Lily in sex work than I did girls who hated it and it always annoyed me how the media and political establishment frames sex work. brava girls, 10/10 no notes.
🥲
I recently saw an IG for a female physician is LatAm who has an only fans and people were trying to ny to discredit her credentials and expertise because she does only fans! Still working on the episode but so far 🫶🏻
a Sherriff nearby my city was recently fired bc they found out she was "doing porn" (I'm not sure if it was OF or somewhere else). She cited financial needs, and all the dudes kicked her out of her job. I couldn't help but know there is hypocrisy here, as well as, WHO THE FUCK CARES what she does in her spare time. And if you are mad about her second job, maybe let's change things so she would never need the second job.
Oh my god - this episode. I grew up like Katie where purity was preached and believed I had progressed to become this cool liberal sex positive adolescent provider dolling out condoms and OCPs, but there was still so much I got to deconstruct in this episode. Bravo. Very well done. Ps we want the Blake ep