Your on air googling got me googling and the parent company of Juvaderm, AbbVie, also makes Humira and Skyrizi which treat autoimmune diseases. So great, they produce Botox and filler which can trigger autoimmune diseases and then turn around and also sell us the cure! 😭
i’m not sure why this podcast found me today, but what a delight it is. re: how these products are named, the FDA prohibits drug companies from using real words as drug/product names. so there’s a whole industry of naming drugs/products with made up words that suggest the idea you want to associate with the product. it’s more overt with juvederm than it is with most: juve = juvenile = youth, plus derm = dermis = skin, so it’s basically called “young skin”.
You both are incredible. What I would not give to have these conversations in a small group.The conversations challenge my thought process in the best way.
this is so kind of you - thank you, thank you, thank you. the conversations mean so much to me, personally, and it's a thrill to know you feel the same way
I loved this! I’d love for you to touch on how Beyoncé, or black female stars in general, are demonized for being “untouchable,” or unrelatable. The interesting part to me is, who gets to be relatable? There are many lanes that a white female pop star can inhabit and be successful, but the options are much narrower for women of color and black women in particular.
What rankles me about Swift’s fandom in particular is this insistence on her universality. This is not extended to anyone else. When a white person says that they don’t listen to Beyoncé because they don’t relate to her, it is accepted as a matter of course. This is the type of racism that is so tricky to see and even trickier to define.
This insight is relevant both to this conversation and last week's about Blake Lively — usually when I hear people talk about Beyoncé as "untouchable," the tone struck me as deferential (e.g., Beyoncé is "untouchable" in the same way that the Ancient Greeks used to feel like the gods were untouchable). You've got me wondering if I've missed "unrelatability" as a dog whistle.
Some of this is definitely branding on Beyoncé's part, but it also reflects a microaggression. The personas available to Black female artists striving for fame are limited. Black women don’t get to be ingenues or perform like Sabrina Carpenter. They can either be serious or sexy and if they navigate it just right, they can embody both. When Beyoncé was emerging, the expectations were even stricter, and she was also competing with other R&B stars for relevance. Over time, her commitment to excellence has often been conflated with unrelatability, but she used to engage with the media and share her personality with those who chose to watch! Black women have always understood her. However, she doesn’t interact with her fanbase in that way anymore, and we see Swift moving in a similar direction.
I refer to this as a microaggression because it otherizes her. This white rebranding of her persona suggests she’s not quite human—albeit in a more complimentary way. The idea of unrelatability is a dog whistle, as you've said, especially considering Beyoncé has written entire albums about love, heartbreak, and cheating—topics that are also staples in Swift's catalog. Yet, only one of these artists is considered accessible in that sense.
Ultimately, white women, and white people more broadly, often struggle to see themselves in Beyoncé, preventing them from granting her the same humanity they afford Swift. It’s fascinating to watch this dynamic unfold on such a large stage.
Thanks for letting me blather on at you! i am obsessed with systems lol
speaking of sabrina carpenter- this article really challenged my understanding of her branding, and i have a feeling you might appreciate it too! (and thank you for such thoughtful comments, they really got my brain racing today) https://substack.com/home/post/p-148686728
It absolutely ties into the soft-girl alt-right pipeline mentioned in this article. it is a regression and I hope you guys get the chance to touch on this too! I don't want to shackle you to the politeness of continued replies but I hope your eye twitches when you read that tweet just like mine did lmfao
okay, this just made it click for me: "not quite human, albeit in a more complimentary way." it's like the flattering way to call someone an object or subhuman. i appreciate your insights here because i hadn't connected those dots.
i think you're right on the money with this observation, and tbh it's such a binary that I'm almost reluctant to add nuance or color (a RARE moment for me). the racial paradigm is set up such that white women are likable, relatable, defensible, and worthy of our time, and black women are not. end of story. so when you square what beyonce has accomplished *in spite of that paradigm* against what any white woman has accomplished in the same time period, it's honestly jaw dropping
I think that's part of what makes Taylor Swift so polarizing. It feels like a kind of cognitive dissonance. Songwriting is a talent that often goes unnoticed unless it's pointed out, while other talents are more immediately visible in a performer. Black artists, in particular, often struggle to gain recognition unless their excellence is immediately apparent. For example, someone like Beyoncé must deliver consistently visible talent to earn reverence, whereas Swift possesses an "invisible" talent. If someone were introduced to TS without any lore, or insight into her catalog and the effort she’s put in, the hype surrounding her might come across as somewhat inauthentic. Despite what I've said, I don't want to suggest that Swift is undeserving of her fame; rather, I believe the underlying issue is that she has become a de facto figurehead for Whiteness. She's THE example of how lenient and forgiving society is toward those who share that identity.
This episode was mind blowingggg. I'm realizing it's crazy that I've wanted to get filler but never spent the time researching it in depth like this, especially when it's injected into MY FACE. Now I'm completely turned off and will only pursue natural methods, if anything.
Also, I love the combo of Katie & Caro. You are so fun together, while also getting deep in the weeds and articulating complex thoughts beautifully. Love to see it.
sometimes I feel like Caro is my intellectual coach LMFAO putting my critical thinking through its paces. I'm glad the episode gave you more to consider!
I am ten years older than you guys. And feel so blessed. The older women I think
of as most beautiful, 1970s actresses who had long and interesting careers, did not have surgery and never would. Look at Charlotte Rampling. Look at Julie Christie. Is there a woman more beautiful than Georgia O'Keefe. I think Gwyneth Oaktrow's mother aged more beautifully than her daughter. Look at Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn G on TikTok. Kathryn G exudes charm and magnetism in a way generic celebrity XYZ never could. Look at Tess Alwyn's TikTok, her Mom appears rarely but is untouched and exquisite. I have no doubt that Nancy Pelosi would be more attractive if she hadn't distorted herself into oblivion. Both of you are beautiful women, you will age beautifully if you do nothing. Chasing the fountain of youth is Sisyphean. Don't invest in these Matt Gaetz, Elon Musk systems.
I am sorry Taylor Swift had to make this choice. I have no doubt she would have aged beautifully naturally. Now, she is trapped.
Please keep going down this Taylor Swift rabbit hole. I think there’s a lot to unpack here with race/whiteness, feminism, and how white women can become better allies.
Honestly if you guys did like 7 hour meandering unedited twitch streams I would listen. Also may I suggest virtual book club?
we are actively working on (ok, "actively" is maybe a strong word) putting together a monthly reading rundown for the best stuff we've come across, with some commentary, ofc
I really enjoyed this conversation - at some point I would love to hear you two speak with women who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. to talk about the shifting pressures as they relate to aging and the reasons (personal, societal, political, etc.) for certain decisions involving appearance. I think the specific impact of subcultural flattening into an enforced mainstream has had a deleterious effect.
i'd love to hear you say more about this — i feel like the older women i know are very much in the 'i don't give a fuck' camp, but they're all 60+ and seem absurdly confident and comfortable in their bodies, which is where i'd love to get
I was talking about this with a friend yesterday - what I read about "baby botox" and lip fillers for the under 35 set seems to be about beauty, however, as I age, I have noticed more about mortality and experience that play into certain procedures. E.g., not having the reasons for age-related wrinkles (not having children so not having an "excuse" or having gone through a difficult relationship, but not wanting to have the visual reminders of tension and stress). This type of reason is definitely related to expectations for women, but not always around beauty.
I was just having this conversation w my mom, who is 52 and gorgeous, but has been filling it and losing the plot for a while. Recently she told me she “needed” a facelift because her face was “sliding off” and we had to talk about how much of this comes from photos of herself and how she isn’t a person who’s life revolves around photos. Like, she’s on zoom and SHE is the only one looking at her own face the whole time she’s in those meetings, and she is posting on Instagram and but all of her 600 followers are people who know and love her in motion or want to see her dog, so they are no misunderstanding that her beautiful face is “sliding off.”
We talked about how youth is being sold her as something that can be achieved or purchased and that is itself the myth that keeps you spending money (the facelift consult she got was for a $38K surgery), and so many of my talking points or lines of thinking started from you guys.
Katie I grew up in Sacramento and it’s crazy girl be careful out there.
your mom is lucky to have you. her generation was sold a bill of hot girl goods that is, in some ways, infinitely more toxic than the one we're dealing with, because there was no loud counterweight in the discourse being like, "wait, this is bullshit."
p.s. i live in the roseville suburbs about 30 minutes north of the city, a little closer to the base where my husband works, so my environment here is decidedly un-crazy lmao
For sure. Her best friend is, and I am not kidding, celebrity dermatologist Liz Hale and she does, 100% feel like it is her moral imperative to be as hot as possible. Growing up in the 80s is a wild ride, but also, I am almost 30 and the way she thinks that I have failed my husband by not getting botox is our goofiest argument.
oh my god. godspeed to you. that would fuck with me so badly if my mom was the enforcer of these norms in my life! you are out here doing the lord's work 2x
I made my husband listen 🤣. We were broadly discussing and he made the comment "women are harder on other women than men even notice or care." I have my own thoughts on this, but I'd love to know what you both think about women upholding the beauty standard rigidly for other women.
1) im obsessed with any husband who willl listen to an 80 minute conversation about the beauty standard 2) i have MANY thoughts about the question you posed and will respond once i've collected them!
He's a keeper! Might change your opinion but he thinks the male body dismorphia is as bad for men as the early-2000s was for women with regards to unattainable body standards. Everyone is taking testosterone and/or steroids. Active discussion in our household.
ok I'm back! i very much *want* to say that women uphold the beauty standard more rigidly than men do, but I'm not convinced that this is true. I think the (straight cishet) male relationship to female beauty is one that can be deeply subconscious, whereas more (straight cishet) women are raised to speak the language and criticisms of beauty more fluently. i'm also thinking that the two sexes exert the pressure of the beauty standard in deeply different ways. i definitely want to read more on this, tho, so if i find good resources ill share on the podcast. tldr i think your husband is just one of the good ones lol
I just went to see ‘The Substance’ last night and if you can stomach copious amounts of body horror, sounds like it might be up your alley this week. It’s an interesting twist on a Grimm-style cautionary tale on how far women in Hollywood are willing to go stay looking youthful.
The worst irony from your discussion is that I want to send this to my friends who get filler because of the potential bodily consequences, but that feels like an attack on their bodily choices.
i am determined to find a way (i don't think we're there yet) to be able to discuss this openly without anyone feeling attacked. i think we can get there. when we talk about diet culture, i don't think people who have gone on diets feel as though their choices are being attacked, because we've all accepted that it's a pervasive force that has seeped into the very fabric of our culture. we don't beat ourselves up for buying into it because we didn't know it was all a lie
totally know what you mean. i wanted to say im someone who has had filler in the past and does get regular Botox, and this episode has been really helpful for me re-evaluating my relationship with ageing and injectables - but ive been on a process of deconstructing this for a while. i cancelled my last botox appointment. i’ve been slowly moving away and untangling why im so afraid to have some lines on my forehead. i don’t think my friends who also get botox and filler would be open to this conversation.
but from a health standpoint, the filler stuff is terrifying. ive only had filler once in my lips, as soon as i saw the MRI studies about it never really leaving your face i decided i would never get filler again, i also won’t dissolve what i have. i’ll just let that .5ml go wherever its going to go in the end i guess. but YIKES.
i think i would bring this episode and the MRI study and the health implications up with a friend if she mentioned she was about to book in for another round of filler.
Taylor Swift will never admit to any sort of procedure because it goes against her image of “down to earth and relatable, small town girl.” The difference between her and someone like Kim Kardashian is that Kim has never tried to purport a wholesome image. Her entire catapult into stardom was based on a “leaked” sex tape. Taylor started as a country singer at a very young age and was more popular with the conservative types long before she became the biggest pop star of modern times.
Going back to your comment about preventative Botox, etc.. That concept has always blown my mind. I don’t know how it is has become normalized for 20 year olds to be getting Botox and filler. I’m 42 and I get Botox 2-3x a year and I started at 40. Also, I use less units now than I did when I first started because I felt my face looked un-natural and dead around the eyes. I think when it comes to procedures like this less is more and if you do too much you will just look like a older woman trying to look younger..which I think has even more shame attached to it than just aging naturally. Either way, it is all rooted in misogyny. My husband doesn’t think about these things for himself.
I know. I can’t count how many times I’ve said, “I want to come back as a man in my next life.” I think as women we have so many pressures on us to achieve it all - we need to be intelligent and successful, all whilst balancing a family and maintaining our attractiveness, which for white women specifically means staying thin. Which I think is an entirely separate topic that kind of goes in hand with the pressure of Botox/filler. Look at the popularity and normalization of people using GLP-1 meds for weight loss now. I’ve seen advertisements on FB where people are advertising for 10-20lbs weight loss. That’s wild to me. Sorry for the ramble, but these topics really consume my thoughts at times!
one of the original reasons i stopped investing so much time and money in my appearance was when i started living with a man and saw how little it consumed his mindspace. i was like, wait, that's not fair? lol
I think you both would find Sally Rooney’s most recent interview with the New York Times super interesting if you haven’t read/listened already! She explicitly addresses the double edged problem of being a Young Woman Author. She talks about how she has benefitted from it because she is seen as a public intellectual whose opinions on big issues are highly sought after, but it’s also meant that she oftentimes gets perceived through the lens of celebrity culture because of her youth and gender
i listened to it and absolutely keyed in on that section - rooney does a really brilliant job of talking about those things with VERY specific and careful language, its almost like she has rehearsed what she wants to say about that topic beforehand, and i get why she would feel that way
doing everything in my power to listen to the full episode BUT had to comment on Katie with her hands over her heart. lol... if that doesn't articulate my feelings as a 42 yr old woman who identifies as a feminist, feels deeply about our right to have agency over our bodies. AND has absolutely partaken in some filler...
Your on air googling got me googling and the parent company of Juvaderm, AbbVie, also makes Humira and Skyrizi which treat autoimmune diseases. So great, they produce Botox and filler which can trigger autoimmune diseases and then turn around and also sell us the cure! 😭
oh my fucking god
i’m not sure why this podcast found me today, but what a delight it is. re: how these products are named, the FDA prohibits drug companies from using real words as drug/product names. so there’s a whole industry of naming drugs/products with made up words that suggest the idea you want to associate with the product. it’s more overt with juvederm than it is with most: juve = juvenile = youth, plus derm = dermis = skin, so it’s basically called “young skin”.
holy shit. can we pin this comment?
(i pinned it lol)
And the CEO and president of AbbVie are named Richard and Robert respectively. 💀
You both are incredible. What I would not give to have these conversations in a small group.The conversations challenge my thought process in the best way.
this is so kind of you - thank you, thank you, thank you. the conversations mean so much to me, personally, and it's a thrill to know you feel the same way
what Caro said — it tickles me to know you're on the other end getting something out of it like we are!
I loved this! I’d love for you to touch on how Beyoncé, or black female stars in general, are demonized for being “untouchable,” or unrelatable. The interesting part to me is, who gets to be relatable? There are many lanes that a white female pop star can inhabit and be successful, but the options are much narrower for women of color and black women in particular.
What rankles me about Swift’s fandom in particular is this insistence on her universality. This is not extended to anyone else. When a white person says that they don’t listen to Beyoncé because they don’t relate to her, it is accepted as a matter of course. This is the type of racism that is so tricky to see and even trickier to define.
This insight is relevant both to this conversation and last week's about Blake Lively — usually when I hear people talk about Beyoncé as "untouchable," the tone struck me as deferential (e.g., Beyoncé is "untouchable" in the same way that the Ancient Greeks used to feel like the gods were untouchable). You've got me wondering if I've missed "unrelatability" as a dog whistle.
Some of this is definitely branding on Beyoncé's part, but it also reflects a microaggression. The personas available to Black female artists striving for fame are limited. Black women don’t get to be ingenues or perform like Sabrina Carpenter. They can either be serious or sexy and if they navigate it just right, they can embody both. When Beyoncé was emerging, the expectations were even stricter, and she was also competing with other R&B stars for relevance. Over time, her commitment to excellence has often been conflated with unrelatability, but she used to engage with the media and share her personality with those who chose to watch! Black women have always understood her. However, she doesn’t interact with her fanbase in that way anymore, and we see Swift moving in a similar direction.
I refer to this as a microaggression because it otherizes her. This white rebranding of her persona suggests she’s not quite human—albeit in a more complimentary way. The idea of unrelatability is a dog whistle, as you've said, especially considering Beyoncé has written entire albums about love, heartbreak, and cheating—topics that are also staples in Swift's catalog. Yet, only one of these artists is considered accessible in that sense.
Ultimately, white women, and white people more broadly, often struggle to see themselves in Beyoncé, preventing them from granting her the same humanity they afford Swift. It’s fascinating to watch this dynamic unfold on such a large stage.
Thanks for letting me blather on at you! i am obsessed with systems lol
speaking of sabrina carpenter- this article really challenged my understanding of her branding, and i have a feeling you might appreciate it too! (and thank you for such thoughtful comments, they really got my brain racing today) https://substack.com/home/post/p-148686728
omg, i read the first bit and it reminded me of this tweet that has been rankling me for DAYS: https://x.com/bejeweledpaige/status/1838384133523050587?s=46&t=Uvmv8IE7Ek2cIpQltTocHw
It absolutely ties into the soft-girl alt-right pipeline mentioned in this article. it is a regression and I hope you guys get the chance to touch on this too! I don't want to shackle you to the politeness of continued replies but I hope your eye twitches when you read that tweet just like mine did lmfao
it was less of an eye twitch and more of a minor aneurysm
okay, this just made it click for me: "not quite human, albeit in a more complimentary way." it's like the flattering way to call someone an object or subhuman. i appreciate your insights here because i hadn't connected those dots.
i think you're right on the money with this observation, and tbh it's such a binary that I'm almost reluctant to add nuance or color (a RARE moment for me). the racial paradigm is set up such that white women are likable, relatable, defensible, and worthy of our time, and black women are not. end of story. so when you square what beyonce has accomplished *in spite of that paradigm* against what any white woman has accomplished in the same time period, it's honestly jaw dropping
I think that's part of what makes Taylor Swift so polarizing. It feels like a kind of cognitive dissonance. Songwriting is a talent that often goes unnoticed unless it's pointed out, while other talents are more immediately visible in a performer. Black artists, in particular, often struggle to gain recognition unless their excellence is immediately apparent. For example, someone like Beyoncé must deliver consistently visible talent to earn reverence, whereas Swift possesses an "invisible" talent. If someone were introduced to TS without any lore, or insight into her catalog and the effort she’s put in, the hype surrounding her might come across as somewhat inauthentic. Despite what I've said, I don't want to suggest that Swift is undeserving of her fame; rather, I believe the underlying issue is that she has become a de facto figurehead for Whiteness. She's THE example of how lenient and forgiving society is toward those who share that identity.
This episode was mind blowingggg. I'm realizing it's crazy that I've wanted to get filler but never spent the time researching it in depth like this, especially when it's injected into MY FACE. Now I'm completely turned off and will only pursue natural methods, if anything.
Also, I love the combo of Katie & Caro. You are so fun together, while also getting deep in the weeds and articulating complex thoughts beautifully. Love to see it.
sometimes I feel like Caro is my intellectual coach LMFAO putting my critical thinking through its paces. I'm glad the episode gave you more to consider!
Same
I am ten years older than you guys. And feel so blessed. The older women I think
of as most beautiful, 1970s actresses who had long and interesting careers, did not have surgery and never would. Look at Charlotte Rampling. Look at Julie Christie. Is there a woman more beautiful than Georgia O'Keefe. I think Gwyneth Oaktrow's mother aged more beautifully than her daughter. Look at Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn G on TikTok. Kathryn G exudes charm and magnetism in a way generic celebrity XYZ never could. Look at Tess Alwyn's TikTok, her Mom appears rarely but is untouched and exquisite. I have no doubt that Nancy Pelosi would be more attractive if she hadn't distorted herself into oblivion. Both of you are beautiful women, you will age beautifully if you do nothing. Chasing the fountain of youth is Sisyphean. Don't invest in these Matt Gaetz, Elon Musk systems.
I am sorry Taylor Swift had to make this choice. I have no doubt she would have aged beautifully naturally. Now, she is trapped.
i love that matt gaetz is catching strays in this comments section. nature is healing
Please keep going down this Taylor Swift rabbit hole. I think there’s a lot to unpack here with race/whiteness, feminism, and how white women can become better allies.
Honestly if you guys did like 7 hour meandering unedited twitch streams I would listen. Also may I suggest virtual book club?
we are actively working on (ok, "actively" is maybe a strong word) putting together a monthly reading rundown for the best stuff we've come across, with some commentary, ofc
I would recommend taking a listen to SWOOPS documentaries on the Kardashians their association with “blackness” is very intentional and exploitative.
will check it out this weekend — thank you
thank you!
I really enjoyed this conversation - at some point I would love to hear you two speak with women who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, etc. to talk about the shifting pressures as they relate to aging and the reasons (personal, societal, political, etc.) for certain decisions involving appearance. I think the specific impact of subcultural flattening into an enforced mainstream has had a deleterious effect.
i'd love to hear you say more about this — i feel like the older women i know are very much in the 'i don't give a fuck' camp, but they're all 60+ and seem absurdly confident and comfortable in their bodies, which is where i'd love to get
I was talking about this with a friend yesterday - what I read about "baby botox" and lip fillers for the under 35 set seems to be about beauty, however, as I age, I have noticed more about mortality and experience that play into certain procedures. E.g., not having the reasons for age-related wrinkles (not having children so not having an "excuse" or having gone through a difficult relationship, but not wanting to have the visual reminders of tension and stress). This type of reason is definitely related to expectations for women, but not always around beauty.
I was just having this conversation w my mom, who is 52 and gorgeous, but has been filling it and losing the plot for a while. Recently she told me she “needed” a facelift because her face was “sliding off” and we had to talk about how much of this comes from photos of herself and how she isn’t a person who’s life revolves around photos. Like, she’s on zoom and SHE is the only one looking at her own face the whole time she’s in those meetings, and she is posting on Instagram and but all of her 600 followers are people who know and love her in motion or want to see her dog, so they are no misunderstanding that her beautiful face is “sliding off.”
We talked about how youth is being sold her as something that can be achieved or purchased and that is itself the myth that keeps you spending money (the facelift consult she got was for a $38K surgery), and so many of my talking points or lines of thinking started from you guys.
Katie I grew up in Sacramento and it’s crazy girl be careful out there.
your mom is lucky to have you. her generation was sold a bill of hot girl goods that is, in some ways, infinitely more toxic than the one we're dealing with, because there was no loud counterweight in the discourse being like, "wait, this is bullshit."
p.s. i live in the roseville suburbs about 30 minutes north of the city, a little closer to the base where my husband works, so my environment here is decidedly un-crazy lmao
For sure. Her best friend is, and I am not kidding, celebrity dermatologist Liz Hale and she does, 100% feel like it is her moral imperative to be as hot as possible. Growing up in the 80s is a wild ride, but also, I am almost 30 and the way she thinks that I have failed my husband by not getting botox is our goofiest argument.
oh my god. godspeed to you. that would fuck with me so badly if my mom was the enforcer of these norms in my life! you are out here doing the lord's work 2x
I made my husband listen 🤣. We were broadly discussing and he made the comment "women are harder on other women than men even notice or care." I have my own thoughts on this, but I'd love to know what you both think about women upholding the beauty standard rigidly for other women.
1) im obsessed with any husband who willl listen to an 80 minute conversation about the beauty standard 2) i have MANY thoughts about the question you posed and will respond once i've collected them!
He's a keeper! Might change your opinion but he thinks the male body dismorphia is as bad for men as the early-2000s was for women with regards to unattainable body standards. Everyone is taking testosterone and/or steroids. Active discussion in our household.
ok I'm back! i very much *want* to say that women uphold the beauty standard more rigidly than men do, but I'm not convinced that this is true. I think the (straight cishet) male relationship to female beauty is one that can be deeply subconscious, whereas more (straight cishet) women are raised to speak the language and criticisms of beauty more fluently. i'm also thinking that the two sexes exert the pressure of the beauty standard in deeply different ways. i definitely want to read more on this, tho, so if i find good resources ill share on the podcast. tldr i think your husband is just one of the good ones lol
I just went to see ‘The Substance’ last night and if you can stomach copious amounts of body horror, sounds like it might be up your alley this week. It’s an interesting twist on a Grimm-style cautionary tale on how far women in Hollywood are willing to go stay looking youthful.
i have been DESPERATE to see this film
The worst irony from your discussion is that I want to send this to my friends who get filler because of the potential bodily consequences, but that feels like an attack on their bodily choices.
i am determined to find a way (i don't think we're there yet) to be able to discuss this openly without anyone feeling attacked. i think we can get there. when we talk about diet culture, i don't think people who have gone on diets feel as though their choices are being attacked, because we've all accepted that it's a pervasive force that has seeped into the very fabric of our culture. we don't beat ourselves up for buying into it because we didn't know it was all a lie
oof i know that game
totally know what you mean. i wanted to say im someone who has had filler in the past and does get regular Botox, and this episode has been really helpful for me re-evaluating my relationship with ageing and injectables - but ive been on a process of deconstructing this for a while. i cancelled my last botox appointment. i’ve been slowly moving away and untangling why im so afraid to have some lines on my forehead. i don’t think my friends who also get botox and filler would be open to this conversation.
but from a health standpoint, the filler stuff is terrifying. ive only had filler once in my lips, as soon as i saw the MRI studies about it never really leaving your face i decided i would never get filler again, i also won’t dissolve what i have. i’ll just let that .5ml go wherever its going to go in the end i guess. but YIKES.
i think i would bring this episode and the MRI study and the health implications up with a friend if she mentioned she was about to book in for another round of filler.
Taylor Swift will never admit to any sort of procedure because it goes against her image of “down to earth and relatable, small town girl.” The difference between her and someone like Kim Kardashian is that Kim has never tried to purport a wholesome image. Her entire catapult into stardom was based on a “leaked” sex tape. Taylor started as a country singer at a very young age and was more popular with the conservative types long before she became the biggest pop star of modern times.
Going back to your comment about preventative Botox, etc.. That concept has always blown my mind. I don’t know how it is has become normalized for 20 year olds to be getting Botox and filler. I’m 42 and I get Botox 2-3x a year and I started at 40. Also, I use less units now than I did when I first started because I felt my face looked un-natural and dead around the eyes. I think when it comes to procedures like this less is more and if you do too much you will just look like a older woman trying to look younger..which I think has even more shame attached to it than just aging naturally. Either way, it is all rooted in misogyny. My husband doesn’t think about these things for himself.
That last sentence tho
I know. I can’t count how many times I’ve said, “I want to come back as a man in my next life.” I think as women we have so many pressures on us to achieve it all - we need to be intelligent and successful, all whilst balancing a family and maintaining our attractiveness, which for white women specifically means staying thin. Which I think is an entirely separate topic that kind of goes in hand with the pressure of Botox/filler. Look at the popularity and normalization of people using GLP-1 meds for weight loss now. I’ve seen advertisements on FB where people are advertising for 10-20lbs weight loss. That’s wild to me. Sorry for the ramble, but these topics really consume my thoughts at times!
one of the original reasons i stopped investing so much time and money in my appearance was when i started living with a man and saw how little it consumed his mindspace. i was like, wait, that's not fair? lol
I think you both would find Sally Rooney’s most recent interview with the New York Times super interesting if you haven’t read/listened already! She explicitly addresses the double edged problem of being a Young Woman Author. She talks about how she has benefitted from it because she is seen as a public intellectual whose opinions on big issues are highly sought after, but it’s also meant that she oftentimes gets perceived through the lens of celebrity culture because of her youth and gender
i listened to it and absolutely keyed in on that section - rooney does a really brilliant job of talking about those things with VERY specific and careful language, its almost like she has rehearsed what she wants to say about that topic beforehand, and i get why she would feel that way
doing everything in my power to listen to the full episode BUT had to comment on Katie with her hands over her heart. lol... if that doesn't articulate my feelings as a 42 yr old woman who identifies as a feminist, feels deeply about our right to have agency over our bodies. AND has absolutely partaken in some filler...
listening now ily
thnx mom