Ladies, thank you. I listened to this while running a half marathon this morning and the poor poor young white men rage fueled me to a 13min PR. Couldn’t have done it without you.
I have never felt more controlled by the algorithm, but this all I have been talking about with my mom and sister and husband and friends. What is going on with the boys!
Something clicked in my when y'all said "going to college is now girly so they reject that." It's like yes we're still there aren't we.
I really need to start taking notes during these like they are a study session but since I’m at the end and your wrap it up with giving people someone to blame - feminist, immigrants, trans people - I want to point out poignant and inherently fascist playbook 101 that is. The “othering” and blaming of a group is such a tale as old as time and it’s mind boggling that we can’t seem to learn from this very basic fascist tactic. Sh*t is bad so let’s give the people a mostly marginalized group who got a little traction in society to scapegoat while we do a power grab.
It’s soooo important to point out that the real problems are generated by reaganomics, late stage capitalism that is borderline worldwide oligarchism (that’s not a word but I’m making it one now), deregulation, systematic and systemic disenfranchisement and lack of pretty much all social safety nets both via the government and community at large (in the US mostly).
It enrages me to no end that the majority of the public fall for the same tactics every single time. Ahhhhhh!!!!
But I really appreciate you both taking the time for calling a spade a spade and detailing why all of these issues (gestures to the world) are really class issues and just pitting groups against each other so we all fight it out down here while the billionaires get richer and richer at our expense.
I recently finished reading “The Small and the Mighty” by Sharon McMahon and she points out how this strategy of othering a minority group as a means to unite an anti-progressive movement truly is a tale as old as time and has been used against countless minority groups throughout time. Yet we never fucking learn.
Oh MAN. As soon as you mentioned the thing about how some cis (often white) men believe that the progress we’ve made for marginalized folks has come at the expense of cis (mostly white) men I had a sudden and terrible flashback to the Christmas after the 2016 election where my (white cis) father looked me in the fucking eye and told me PROUDLY he’s not a feminist because it was EXCLUSIONARY TO MEN. It’s right there in the name! And I still thought he was a reasonable person, so I tried to explain freaking FEMINISM to my adult ass father and I can just about guarantee all he heard was “blah blah hysterical girl bs BLAH” because he likes to decide what anyone is going to say before they, you know, say it. ANYWAY. I just. Ugh. It just felt like a lightening moment and I wish I could go back and try again. Or try now. But it turns out he’s not a very safe person for me to be around (shocking I’m sure) and I haven’t talked to him in about 5 or 6 years. I am choosing to focus on my husband and son and making sure they keep their head on straight. (Husband does actually listen to me and believes what I’m saying and son is 3 and has a language delay, so like it’s pretty easy work so far but that doesn’t mean the worry ever goes away.)
It’s worthwhile work and I will do it, but my GOD. These freaking DUDES.
Such a great conversation as usual, thanks! Love the discussion of how Jordan Peterson is a gateway drug for men, fucking hate that guy. Also super interesting to hear actual loneliness numbers, I had no idea how much that information had been misrepresented to make men appear to be the victims.
My only thought with regards to the Scott Galloway critique is that I didn’t take what he said in the clip to mean that men need to be singled out with male-centric policy or platforms, but that young men have a perception of “help everyone but me” that could be remedied by moving away from identity and focusing on class differences. I 100% agree that all of that is accomplished by supporting policy for POC, LGBTQ+, etc who overwhelmingly represent disadvantaged classes, but suspect that nuance is lost on many men, especially gen z men. I think there was strong evidence of this in the election results: the men voted on vibes rather than reality and went with the guy that said he was for them (though is not). To me his argument was about messaging more than anything else. When SG said 70% of the jobs created have gone to men, he also said we need to publicize that and make it clear that these platforms are good for men too- especially men that are uneducated and lower class who have been overwhelmingly pro trump but are also overwhelmingly harmed by his policies. Offering an alternative and more healthy version of masculinity (Tim Walz-esque) may be better than making them feel like the enemy and alienating them entirely. It may give them a sense of purpose that isn’t based on the oppression of everyone who isn’t male and white. We live in a binary system rather we like it or not at the moment, it wasn’t going to change in the 3 months leading up to the election, though systemically does need to change. I blame everyone who didn’t look through the lies and who were enticed by toxic patriarchy and misogyny for what we are about to endure, and do not want a male centered platform. But would like a class centered platform which can also include information on how these policies help everyone who isn’t a shareholder (including men). I have so much rage post election and generally walk away disgusted with men in this country (and white women), but sadly we will need more of these interest groups to win any future elections. Again this does not mean pander to misogyny or center men, or even water down policies to make them more palatable to men, but perhaps include men as the benefactors of more altruistic policies, because that is the reality.
Not done yet with this already fascinating episode, but some relevant readings came to mind in your conversation around minute 18:00 and this idea of the pervasiveness of zero sum game thinking even if it will also benefit people who are not the initial or labeled targets of policy 1. Wendy Brown's "In the Ruins of Neoliberalism" and specifically the chapter "No Future for White Men: Nihilism, Fatalism and Ressentiment" where she gets into how neoliberalism + nihlishim produces essentially a breeding ground for a zero sum game mindset 2. Jonathan Metzel's "Dying of Whiteness" which is in all around a fascinating and heartbreaking book in the genre of "why people vote against their own interests."
Would definitely love a resource recommendation list that I can bookmark, because I want to remember to dig into the readings mentioned above once I have more time.
Ah your timing could not have been more impeccable! I listen to podcasts to go to sleep and was just working through yours again last night and thinking to myself...wow I would love if Diabolical Lies would release another one soon. And I wake up to an amazing surprise! What a fantastic listen. I'm going to have to listen a few times to really absorb since there were so many excellent points.
Also fascinating that we seem to be on the same algorithm since I had just watched that Jimmy youtube video this past week and found it really informative.
Just found your podcast this morning, listening to this episode. I’m a public librarian and a man just had me put Of Boys and Men on hold yesterday 🙃 I read the book description and had major questions but didn’t know it was THIS BAD
The infinity of ideas presented in natural speed and a half feels like a spaghetti social where the hosts stuff spaghetti and sauce constantly into our faces. The food is amazing but I can’t catch my breath between bites!!
A bit late to this ep but just want to say as another white woman raised conservative Christian in the Deep South (and an SEC school alumna) turned leftist, this feels like my podcast home. Thanks for all the research and effort you put into these conversations!
Just loved this so much and it weirdly also filled me with hope, likely because you do such an amazing job clearly identifying the truth in our circumstances. Also love the conversations here in the comments ❤️ What great work!
Ladies, thank you. I listened to this while running a half marathon this morning and the poor poor young white men rage fueled me to a 13min PR. Couldn’t have done it without you.
omg i am HONORED to have been a part of this moment
TY for the shout out, and for diving into this curious "let's center the men!" discourse during this time of triumph for male domination...?
I have never felt more controlled by the algorithm, but this all I have been talking about with my mom and sister and husband and friends. What is going on with the boys!
Something clicked in my when y'all said "going to college is now girly so they reject that." It's like yes we're still there aren't we.
I really need to start taking notes during these like they are a study session but since I’m at the end and your wrap it up with giving people someone to blame - feminist, immigrants, trans people - I want to point out poignant and inherently fascist playbook 101 that is. The “othering” and blaming of a group is such a tale as old as time and it’s mind boggling that we can’t seem to learn from this very basic fascist tactic. Sh*t is bad so let’s give the people a mostly marginalized group who got a little traction in society to scapegoat while we do a power grab.
It’s soooo important to point out that the real problems are generated by reaganomics, late stage capitalism that is borderline worldwide oligarchism (that’s not a word but I’m making it one now), deregulation, systematic and systemic disenfranchisement and lack of pretty much all social safety nets both via the government and community at large (in the US mostly).
It enrages me to no end that the majority of the public fall for the same tactics every single time. Ahhhhhh!!!!
But I really appreciate you both taking the time for calling a spade a spade and detailing why all of these issues (gestures to the world) are really class issues and just pitting groups against each other so we all fight it out down here while the billionaires get richer and richer at our expense.
I recently finished reading “The Small and the Mighty” by Sharon McMahon and she points out how this strategy of othering a minority group as a means to unite an anti-progressive movement truly is a tale as old as time and has been used against countless minority groups throughout time. Yet we never fucking learn.
This is legitimately unbelievable. I wish I could share this with the whole world.
Oh MAN. As soon as you mentioned the thing about how some cis (often white) men believe that the progress we’ve made for marginalized folks has come at the expense of cis (mostly white) men I had a sudden and terrible flashback to the Christmas after the 2016 election where my (white cis) father looked me in the fucking eye and told me PROUDLY he’s not a feminist because it was EXCLUSIONARY TO MEN. It’s right there in the name! And I still thought he was a reasonable person, so I tried to explain freaking FEMINISM to my adult ass father and I can just about guarantee all he heard was “blah blah hysterical girl bs BLAH” because he likes to decide what anyone is going to say before they, you know, say it. ANYWAY. I just. Ugh. It just felt like a lightening moment and I wish I could go back and try again. Or try now. But it turns out he’s not a very safe person for me to be around (shocking I’m sure) and I haven’t talked to him in about 5 or 6 years. I am choosing to focus on my husband and son and making sure they keep their head on straight. (Husband does actually listen to me and believes what I’m saying and son is 3 and has a language delay, so like it’s pretty easy work so far but that doesn’t mean the worry ever goes away.)
It’s worthwhile work and I will do it, but my GOD. These freaking DUDES.
I just blocked that bigot fyi! So that comment is gone
Awesome! Thank you!
I meant cis men. Trans men are real men.
I know you’re a fucking bigot who’s going to be blocked in ~5 minutes. That’s what the fuck I know.
Such a great conversation as usual, thanks! Love the discussion of how Jordan Peterson is a gateway drug for men, fucking hate that guy. Also super interesting to hear actual loneliness numbers, I had no idea how much that information had been misrepresented to make men appear to be the victims.
My only thought with regards to the Scott Galloway critique is that I didn’t take what he said in the clip to mean that men need to be singled out with male-centric policy or platforms, but that young men have a perception of “help everyone but me” that could be remedied by moving away from identity and focusing on class differences. I 100% agree that all of that is accomplished by supporting policy for POC, LGBTQ+, etc who overwhelmingly represent disadvantaged classes, but suspect that nuance is lost on many men, especially gen z men. I think there was strong evidence of this in the election results: the men voted on vibes rather than reality and went with the guy that said he was for them (though is not). To me his argument was about messaging more than anything else. When SG said 70% of the jobs created have gone to men, he also said we need to publicize that and make it clear that these platforms are good for men too- especially men that are uneducated and lower class who have been overwhelmingly pro trump but are also overwhelmingly harmed by his policies. Offering an alternative and more healthy version of masculinity (Tim Walz-esque) may be better than making them feel like the enemy and alienating them entirely. It may give them a sense of purpose that isn’t based on the oppression of everyone who isn’t male and white. We live in a binary system rather we like it or not at the moment, it wasn’t going to change in the 3 months leading up to the election, though systemically does need to change. I blame everyone who didn’t look through the lies and who were enticed by toxic patriarchy and misogyny for what we are about to endure, and do not want a male centered platform. But would like a class centered platform which can also include information on how these policies help everyone who isn’t a shareholder (including men). I have so much rage post election and generally walk away disgusted with men in this country (and white women), but sadly we will need more of these interest groups to win any future elections. Again this does not mean pander to misogyny or center men, or even water down policies to make them more palatable to men, but perhaps include men as the benefactors of more altruistic policies, because that is the reality.
The last bit about the nostalgia of the 1950s...🔥 also can't wait for the birth episode!!
Not done yet with this already fascinating episode, but some relevant readings came to mind in your conversation around minute 18:00 and this idea of the pervasiveness of zero sum game thinking even if it will also benefit people who are not the initial or labeled targets of policy 1. Wendy Brown's "In the Ruins of Neoliberalism" and specifically the chapter "No Future for White Men: Nihilism, Fatalism and Ressentiment" where she gets into how neoliberalism + nihlishim produces essentially a breeding ground for a zero sum game mindset 2. Jonathan Metzel's "Dying of Whiteness" which is in all around a fascinating and heartbreaking book in the genre of "why people vote against their own interests."
Thanks for the Pod!
Ooh this is making me think we should add a bookshop resource list of book recs- I definitely need to read these. Thank you!
Would definitely love a resource recommendation list that I can bookmark, because I want to remember to dig into the readings mentioned above once I have more time.
Ah your timing could not have been more impeccable! I listen to podcasts to go to sleep and was just working through yours again last night and thinking to myself...wow I would love if Diabolical Lies would release another one soon. And I wake up to an amazing surprise! What a fantastic listen. I'm going to have to listen a few times to really absorb since there were so many excellent points.
Also fascinating that we seem to be on the same algorithm since I had just watched that Jimmy youtube video this past week and found it really informative.
This was a phenomenal listen- thanks ladies- enjoyed every second.
You’re my hero
We love you, Celeste!
Just found your podcast this morning, listening to this episode. I’m a public librarian and a man just had me put Of Boys and Men on hold yesterday 🙃 I read the book description and had major questions but didn’t know it was THIS BAD
ps thank you for being a librarian, you're the last bastion against total intellectual decay in this country lol
LOL — richard reeves strikes again! hang in there.
The infinity of ideas presented in natural speed and a half feels like a spaghetti social where the hosts stuff spaghetti and sauce constantly into our faces. The food is amazing but I can’t catch my breath between bites!!
Wonderful
Marvelous
Creating Value
I bow
A bit late to this ep but just want to say as another white woman raised conservative Christian in the Deep South (and an SEC school alumna) turned leftist, this feels like my podcast home. Thanks for all the research and effort you put into these conversations!
We’re so happy you’re here 🥲
Also so excited for the three pieces of legislation episode 😅🙏
@Katie Gatti Tassin we have to do it!!
Just loved this so much and it weirdly also filled me with hope, likely because you do such an amazing job clearly identifying the truth in our circumstances. Also love the conversations here in the comments ❤️ What great work!