I like that you guys spoke about not acknowledging arguments that are not in good faith or legitimatizing them. I always wonder how to do that in real life, and I wonder if the only option is to opt out or say something like “that was an odd thing to say” haha
Super difficult to do, especially if you haven't done a lot of thinking about the subject and don't have all those answers right away.
I've had a few conversations recently where my brain couldn't quite process yet that 3-4 layers down, it was actually starting on X premise that then makes all these assumptions to get to their point. My brain immediately wanted to process the "this assertion you made was wild" which reinforces the underlying premise instead of being able to take a second and make these connections. It actually took me like 3 days of thinking through it to make the full connection, so maybe next time will be faster?
Can require some good relationship to be able to come back and push on it though (in my case, my dad).
Maybe Caro mentioned this in recent a tiktok(?), but analyzing how Ta-Nehisi Coates did this in his recent CBS interview is a great example.
yes james! i also thought the point about ta-nehisi's approach of just completely rejecting the premise of the question was dope. nav, i'm with you, in real life it's very hard to do on the spot without straight-up saying, "i completely reject the premise of your question," which is a pretty literal response lol
My mom got pregnant at 17 in 1968 and was sent to an unwed mothers' home to have her baby in secret and give him up for adoption.
It felt like a physical gut punch to read "domestic supply of infants" in the Dobbs decision, because pre-Roe, babies of teen moms were often treated as commodities and the teen moms like cattle.
LOVED this epi! I’m a long time Money with Katie reader and listener and just discovered Diabolical Lies and obsessed. As a Swiftie, I just listened to your Taylor Swift filler epi and my mind is reeling. I’m a brand insights person and big data nerd so the point in this epi of the birth rate trend being inherently faulty because the control group is always in comparison to pre birth control data blew my mind. Thank you guys and can’t wait to hear more !
Thanks so much for all the content, love it. Helps me make so many more connections.
I especially love any part of these conversations that talk about the imagination of different ways of doing things, so going to second a recommendation to try out The Dawn of Everything (it is huge, and is definitely not for everyone).
The Dig (podcast) did an interview with the co-author a few years back for whoever wants to get a taste.
The complicity of women in their own suppression is something I think about constantly.
Particularly the well educated, well off white women(although I need to hear from Usha Vance) who are happy to believe whatever a man tells them they should believe, because it’s too uncomfortable to think for themselves. I think Katie’s comment about the economic motivation behind this is spot on and also so so pathetic and it makes me furious.
Also, petition to refer to JD as James Donald Bowman, which was his birth name and clearly a name he dislikes since he changed it.
I also think it’s because of the flavour of patriarchy those women receive (the benevolent kind) that makes the buy in easier - and the belief that you are better than the women or people who don’t receive (or maybe even deserve) that flavour of patriarchy
I re-listened today and will say, definitely worth the time! I think I’ll even give it another listen in a few days because a lot of the ideas I need to mull over to really understand what it means for me and my beliefs (and those around me)
This is how I now feel about most things, especially if I drop a tidbit in a convo with someone who hasn't heard it and they shift my perspective I need to come back with that differing view to see how I hear it now
Caro calling out that there is no control set of data to compare to considering women were recently given the right to choose…. Mic drop. This plus the fact that in a post-internet/AI society, we can no longer rely on our current understanding of how many jobs are required to bolster society. Given the fact that a substantial amount of corporate jobs are just bloat (see Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber), claiming that we need the same number of jobs as a pre-internet society is inaccurate.
This conversation is really brining me back to Isabel Wilkerson’s book “Caste” she really emphasizes the concept that Caste is the root of all of the “isms”
Hey! I’m a historian and history teacher - if y’all want to have a guest on, please please let me know! A lot of what you’re wondering about in terms of the distant past, is SO right on the money. I HIGHLY recommend Women’s Work: The Firsr 20,000 Years.
I have no idea if anyone will even see these comments because this episode is months old, lol… but I am a (happily married) childless cat lady, and the single toughest thing for me to get around in regards to people I know and love voting for trump/vance was this awful language around women who don’t have kids. My husband and I wanted kids - it didn’t happen, it was fucking awful and traumatic - and after about a year and a half we decided to embrace DINK life and we are VERY HAPPY. People say weird and awful shit to me and ask stupid personal questions- I always wonder if the people I love SECRETLY think our lives are meaningless.
This is absolutely fascinating and illuminating. I wish every woman could hear this because it canvasses all aspects of the conservative movement. To understand why and how just helps so f*ing much.
I like that you guys spoke about not acknowledging arguments that are not in good faith or legitimatizing them. I always wonder how to do that in real life, and I wonder if the only option is to opt out or say something like “that was an odd thing to say” haha
Super difficult to do, especially if you haven't done a lot of thinking about the subject and don't have all those answers right away.
I've had a few conversations recently where my brain couldn't quite process yet that 3-4 layers down, it was actually starting on X premise that then makes all these assumptions to get to their point. My brain immediately wanted to process the "this assertion you made was wild" which reinforces the underlying premise instead of being able to take a second and make these connections. It actually took me like 3 days of thinking through it to make the full connection, so maybe next time will be faster?
Can require some good relationship to be able to come back and push on it though (in my case, my dad).
Maybe Caro mentioned this in recent a tiktok(?), but analyzing how Ta-Nehisi Coates did this in his recent CBS interview is a great example.
yes james! i also thought the point about ta-nehisi's approach of just completely rejecting the premise of the question was dope. nav, i'm with you, in real life it's very hard to do on the spot without straight-up saying, "i completely reject the premise of your question," which is a pretty literal response lol
The teen pregnancy stat!! I am inclined to think many people don’t give this any consideration!
My mom got pregnant at 17 in 1968 and was sent to an unwed mothers' home to have her baby in secret and give him up for adoption.
It felt like a physical gut punch to read "domestic supply of infants" in the Dobbs decision, because pre-Roe, babies of teen moms were often treated as commodities and the teen moms like cattle.
LOVED this epi! I’m a long time Money with Katie reader and listener and just discovered Diabolical Lies and obsessed. As a Swiftie, I just listened to your Taylor Swift filler epi and my mind is reeling. I’m a brand insights person and big data nerd so the point in this epi of the birth rate trend being inherently faulty because the control group is always in comparison to pre birth control data blew my mind. Thank you guys and can’t wait to hear more !
hi arabella! welcome and thank you for being here for caro and i's wheels-off, nsfw convos! lol
Thanks so much for all the content, love it. Helps me make so many more connections.
I especially love any part of these conversations that talk about the imagination of different ways of doing things, so going to second a recommendation to try out The Dawn of Everything (it is huge, and is definitely not for everyone).
The Dig (podcast) did an interview with the co-author a few years back for whoever wants to get a taste.
I was also raised republican and my first vote was for Bush in 2000. I appreciate you guys sharing your cringe memories.
petition to make a diabolical lies t-shirt in the vein of those iconic reagan bush t-shirts lol
The complicity of women in their own suppression is something I think about constantly.
Particularly the well educated, well off white women(although I need to hear from Usha Vance) who are happy to believe whatever a man tells them they should believe, because it’s too uncomfortable to think for themselves. I think Katie’s comment about the economic motivation behind this is spot on and also so so pathetic and it makes me furious.
Also, petition to refer to JD as James Donald Bowman, which was his birth name and clearly a name he dislikes since he changed it.
JAMES DONALD BOWMAN? the plot! it thiccens!
I also think it’s because of the flavour of patriarchy those women receive (the benevolent kind) that makes the buy in easier - and the belief that you are better than the women or people who don’t receive (or maybe even deserve) that flavour of patriarchy
And I think many class structures work similarly - when you are able to reap some benefits even if not all, it’s easier to justify the structure
So much good in this episode I will have to re-listen a few times for it all to truly seep in. Love!
I re-listened today and will say, definitely worth the time! I think I’ll even give it another listen in a few days because a lot of the ideas I need to mull over to really understand what it means for me and my beliefs (and those around me)
This is how I now feel about most things, especially if I drop a tidbit in a convo with someone who hasn't heard it and they shift my perspective I need to come back with that differing view to see how I hear it now
Caro calling out that there is no control set of data to compare to considering women were recently given the right to choose…. Mic drop. This plus the fact that in a post-internet/AI society, we can no longer rely on our current understanding of how many jobs are required to bolster society. Given the fact that a substantial amount of corporate jobs are just bloat (see Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber), claiming that we need the same number of jobs as a pre-internet society is inaccurate.
! these are such big points. David Graeber for life
Here they are saying the quiet part out loud: https://missouriindependent.com/2024/10/22/missouri-mifepristone-lawsuit-andrew-bailey-teen-pregnancy/
!!!!!!
This conversation is really brining me back to Isabel Wilkerson’s book “Caste” she really emphasizes the concept that Caste is the root of all of the “isms”
YES!
Hey! I’m a historian and history teacher - if y’all want to have a guest on, please please let me know! A lot of what you’re wondering about in terms of the distant past, is SO right on the money. I HIGHLY recommend Women’s Work: The Firsr 20,000 Years.
I have no idea if anyone will even see these comments because this episode is months old, lol… but I am a (happily married) childless cat lady, and the single toughest thing for me to get around in regards to people I know and love voting for trump/vance was this awful language around women who don’t have kids. My husband and I wanted kids - it didn’t happen, it was fucking awful and traumatic - and after about a year and a half we decided to embrace DINK life and we are VERY HAPPY. People say weird and awful shit to me and ask stupid personal questions- I always wonder if the people I love SECRETLY think our lives are meaningless.
This. Particularly the question of whether the people around you think your life is meaningless.
This is absolutely fascinating and illuminating. I wish every woman could hear this because it canvasses all aspects of the conservative movement. To understand why and how just helps so f*ing much.